Engineer vs PCB Designer

[acbrown64]

I interviewed with a company today that has it's Engineers doing board layout. This is an lighting ballast compay. I'm trying to find out if anyone has any info on PCB Designers laying out pc boards vs Electrical Engineering. In my 20 years in the PCB industry, I don't know of any EE's that would like to do PC board layout.
Thanks Andy

[Colorado-PC-Dude]

Tom,

Five EEs here and one does some of his own PCB layouts.

Ben

[randychase]

Depends on the engineer, the type of board, and the company.

In my 25+ years, I have seen a number of electronic engineers that would rather lay out their own designs. Consider this one perspective. The EE spends a lot of man hours working on a design. He labors over the schematic. Chooses parts. Maybe he breadboards circuits. And after all that, he hands it off to the pcb designer to layout the board.

For some engineers, that is like buying the canvas, the paint, choosing the colors, deciding on the scene... and then handing it all over to someone else to paint.

It may not be more efficient, and an engineer that occasionally designs boards may not be as good as it, but he controls it and some people like that.

In some cases, the layout is enough of an artform or require special skill, that the engineer or company would rather not hand the design over. Examples include RF boards. In fact, I did some work once for a lighting ballast company that had boards that were rreally bizarre in what the engineers wanted with each trace.

Also, some companies and engineers have worked with less than stellar designers (one reason for CID) and that has changed their perspective. It's common for me to work for a new client who feels they have to sit with me and hand place every component. I have to prove to them that they can trust me, if they give me the parameters they are working around, to do the right thing.

[Tom]

Andy,

Hang in there and I will post a reply to your question. I'm in a 2 day BlazeRouter training session right now, but I'll get back with you as soon as possible. My poor brain is hurting. Ouch!

[ldallara]

Andy:

Me either.... If the EE took his education seriously he wouldn't be hooking up lines to circles... but times are tuff... and a man got to do what he's gota to do... like pay back all those loans I guess..
EE's layout boards usually happens in hard times..



>Engineer vs PCB Designer
>I interviewed with a company today that has it's Engineers >doing board layout. This is an lighting ballast compay. I'm trying >to find out if anyone has any info on PCB Designers laying out >pc boards vs Electrical Engineering. In my 20 years in the PCB >industry, I don't know of any EE's that would like to do PC board >layout.
>Thanks Andy


__________________

[Lameris]

As an engineer, I have a layout designer who usually PCB.

However, and to add on Randy's statements, the tools are becoming tightly coupled. Most boards have at least a few rules that are forwarded and back annotated to the schematic. Furthermore, the design can be sent to other programs such as EMC simulation and SPICE in the engineers domain.

I REFUSE to work simply based on the artwork and schematic anymore as I lose the intelligence between the programs. 80% of the errors I found on my last design review I attended I could not have found on paper.

I can make my own PCB's, I am not proficient at using PowerPCB as that is not my primary tool. However if the designer has a broken PCB, I usually assist in contacting tech support, correcting the problem or teaching him how to do a new task as two eyes are better than one. If he is gone, I can usually do an emergency job.

The engineers here inspect the routing and make minor changes to placement and routing. Most are in the process of learning the basics of PCB construction, stackup, clearance and routing rules to better discuss these issues with the PCB designer. The PCB designer in general places parts, performs the major routes, makes the gerbers and handles the details of getting a board made. The engineers use crossprobing between Viewdraw and PowerPCB extensively along with compare netlists and error reports.

[Tom]

Andy,

I think that there is a trend for engineers to dip into the PCB design world but I also think that engineers are dumping on the PCB Designers many tasks that they do not want to deal with. I think the future PCB designer will perform many tasks that today's engineers perform. It's all about education and job security.

At Wind River, many of the engineers insist on doing their own part placement in their own office (alone) while others don't have the time. But times are tough many engineers are beginning to learn board layout including routing. Some engineers are fascinated with PCB design. It depends on the individual. The only tasks that engineers have a hard time getting right are library construction and post processing. And those two processes are becoming standardized.

Our goal at pcbstandards.com was to automate the PCB design cycle to allow a PCB designer to become more productive so they can produce more products, become more valuable and earn more money. As PCB Standards become more and more popular, I see that it also makes the engineers job role as a PCB designer easier and more productive.

I believe the answer to your question is today's economy. I do believe that the market will rebound as soon as the Iraq issue is over. When that happens, it will be back to business as usual and the unemployment rate for PCB Designers will be back to zero (where it was 2 years ago). So if all the PCB designers are happily employed, who cares if engineers want to learn the trade?

[phillipr]

HI

None of our Engineers do Pcb design Here.
I have Spent the last 6 weeks on a job that is being designed at the same time as the schematic.
Now if the Engineer wanted to do it all, the product would be 6 weeks later to market as he would have to do all that work after the schematic was finish, which we cant afford to happen.
It Does mean that My time is not quite as productive Designing the boards As I may have to change some Old routing or add and remove some parts as they change their mind on Certain bits of Circuitry
but the over all outcome is what we are after.

[Cadcrusher]

All of our pcb designers here have some sort of engineering degree. the type of boards we design here reguire an understanding of how the circuits work.

[BobWilson]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ldallara
[B]Andy:

Me either.... If the EE took his education seriously he wouldn't be hooking up lines to circles... but times are tuff... and a man got to do what he's gota to do... like pay back all those loans I guess..
EE's layout boards usually happens in hard times..
*********
We have 2 full-time PCB layout guys here and 6 EE's. Every time we take a file into the Critical Design Review meetings, one of the EE's shakes his head and mutters "Imagine having to make a living laying out boards!"

And the other EE's shudder.

I hope they keep shuddering and I get better at what I do.

I think it's the equivalent of a manager standing at a copy machine...almost. (I need to get the secretary to help me figure out the damn thing. (She shakes her head and mutters "Idiot").) From what I can see, they don't just give those EE degrees away-- personalities aside. As long as they dislike board layout so much it allows a high-school dropout (me) a chance to make a living.

Happy Thanksgiving you all! (Ah, the life of a contractor! 2 days without pay and a year-end non-paid vacation of 8 days! Anyone need a cook or bottle-washer over the US holidays?

[padmaster]

Originally posted by Tom Hausherr
Our goal at pcbstandards.com was to automate the PCB design cycle to allow a PCB designer to become more productive so they can produce more products, become more valuable and earn more money. As PCB Standards become more and more popular, I see that it also makes the engineers job role as a PCB designer easier and more productive.


Isn't that kinda contradictory? Usually 'automating' something means someones gonna get layed off or get a pay cut :(


I have worked with many EE's and technicians who wanted to do their own layout and it usually doesn't last for long. It may work for a really small company but, I think it's a bad idea to have 'jack of all trades' people. These people are typically not very knowlegable in all the aspects of PCB design. If this person goes on vacation or has an accident, what then? Could you replace them before the project dies? Do you put the whole company on hold till this person returns? I think it serves the company better to have a few people that specialize in a particular field.

[randychase]

No matter what any designers do, some engineers will lay out their own boards. Even if it takes them 4 times as long. For some boards, it makes sense. For some companies, that is the way it works.

There is some upsides to that. If the company thinks it's worth having an engineer that is paid $120k to layout boards, then the value of a good board layout designer is increased also. Because if I free up the engineer to make a new schematic, then I save the company that much money.

Some of this is the fault of bad designers also. I run into engineers who are used to not getting good results. It can see that it would be frustrating to work on something and then hand it over to someone and hope it comes out okay. They have to trust you to do a good job for them.

As far as automation and job elimination, that has been happening for as long as I have been doing board layout, at least 25 years. I read reports in the early 80s that CAD would eliminate most of us, or that it would become pushbutton and engineers would do designs very easily. Or that the integration of circuits into single devices would eliminate board layout.

And all of that is true to some extent. Massive device integration has simplified board layout, where we no longer design using 100 dip14 logic devices. It's all on ASIC. Many boards have become a few major chips and some I/O. But those chips are a lot more complicated. The timing, lead pitches, etc increased.

Yes, some designs are now easily done by engineers. As designers, we need to continually improve our ability and technology. Better tools. More competence. Demonstrate daily why you are a better choice for doing that board layout.

[Tom]

My take on industry automation is this.......

Without standards, it will be impossible to automate the product development cycle. If everyone builds their own library parts with different origins, different rotations, different naming conventions, different pad sizes and different units (inch & metric) the assembly process will always cost more, take longer and the error rate (which produces scrap) will never go away.

OK, I agree that if everyone used the same CAD library that that assembly process would be so automated that there could be a potential for staff reductions. But there will also be turnaround, cost and error rate reductions.

OK, I agree that if everyone used the same CAD library that it would make the engineer’s job easier. But the PCB designers could jump from one company to another seamlessly without the hassle of learning each different employers CAD library mess or starting from scratch each time.

My vision of the year 2010 is a very integrated electronics community where there is a single specification for building and naming schematic symbols. There will be one central CAD library (and it will be metric) and it will be linked to every schematic symbol in the world. Every assembly shop will be able to take CAD data directly into their machines with almost no setup time.

PCB manufacturers will also automate their processes with CAD data directly imported into their machines for fast turnarounds and zero scrap rates.

It's a very funny situation. Back in the 1960's the schools told us that by the year 2000 there will be full automation in producing products and humans will have more leisure time. They forgot one key ingredient - Standards. Without everyone using the same standards, it's impossible to fully automate anything. IPC states that there is over 2 million wasted man hours every year in CAD library construction due to duplication of effort. Is that job security or stupidity?

In the mean time we have companies like Valor making millions of dollars due to the lack of standards. We spend millions using their VPL library to verify whether we built the correct library part. It's called "Verification of Data". We don't need verification we need standardization.

That's my opinion, what's yours?

[padmaster]

Originally posted by randychase
Some of this is the fault of bad designers also. I run into engineers who are used to not getting good results. It can see that it would be frustrating to work on something and then hand it over to someone and hope it comes out okay. They have to trust you to do a good job for them.


AMEN TO THAT !!!!!

[padmaster]

btw

Very well said Tom. Looks like you've got your work cut out for you. Don't forget, there are alot of ego's out there, especially in our field.

P.S. I prefer the term 'streamline' to 'automate' ;)

[JimR-OCDS]

Well, I've been doing PCB layout's for 30 years. I've worked in big companies and now I'm in a small company(which I prefer). I've seen engineers who'd rather do their own layouts, and other's that would rather have a bone marrow transplant than do layout work.

Generally, those engineers that did their own layouts, were in the big companies where that one project was all they worked on, and the layout wasn't too complex. They think it is however, and we just let them think that way! *G*

The company I work for now also has engineering groups in China. Their the engineers do their own layouts, but once it's done, they throw it over the wall for a CAD person to cleanup, document and post-process for manufacturing. One of the engineers from that group transfered here to the states. He had a little difficulty with the idea that I would do his layout. However, once he saw I could get it done in 1/4 the time it took him, he now prefers that I do the layouts. I do all the CAD work for my engineering group, schematic capture, PCB layout and mechanical drafting. I also do a little IS support on our computers.

The bottom line is, you have to prove your worth. If you don't add value to the engineering group, you should be concerned.

[Bill Brooks]

What I see happening is the gradual awakening of PCB Designers to the real need for continual education in the design field.

NO Designer 'knows it all', not when the technology is constantly changing. 3 GHz computers are on the drawing boards ready for release and they are MICROWAVE frequencies folks..... The chips are MICROWAVE devices... the grounding is critical! The impedance matches critical! The lead length, via positioning, size, quantity and construction matter. The stack up is critical! The BOARD MATERIALS ARE TEFLON...not FR4. Manufacturing tolerances MATTER!!! You need to KNOW YOUR PROFESSION.

This job is NOT 'connect the dots' anymore.... you need to BE an engineer to understand the issues in the new designs.

Get a degree.... or get left behind. The CID, is the first step... take the second, third and fourth.

Why are engineers doing the designs?... Because they have to. And it will be engineers that get the design jobs of the future... Smart engineers that have trained themselves to be more than the PCB Designers they already are.

Just my humble opinion...

[ingestein]

Last year I was hired to train a small companies engineers on PowerPCB. It was a dissaster! Being a seasoned designer myself I felt that the fine art of my profession was in jeopardy! Not true!Engineers have NO PATIENTS! and most hate the tedious task of laying out PCB's.
SO don't feel that this will be the trend. I don't think so!.
The company still hires me on a temp basis when they need thier boards layed out.
Inge

[trex]

The argument that some of you use that a engineer shouldn't be wasting his time laying out boards rings hollow. Some companies use an engineer for the design, a technician for schematics, and a PCB designer for layout.

At every company that I have worked at, large or small, I was held accountable for the final board design. It doesn't matter if it is a problem in schematics, layout, fabrication, or assembly.

Since I am held accountable for the everything, I want to control the layout even if it does take a little longer. This helps me make sure that I have taken into account everthing in the design process.

[David Ricketts]

I just did a job search in the LA/Orange County area for PCB Design. I got 8 responses: every one of them was for a design engineer who needed to know board layout. Not one PCB Designer only job. This sounds like the new trend :-(

[mgatewood]

Another point of view. (kind of long and rambling)

I started as a technician/pcb designer about 9 years ago at a small start-up company. Since neither job title had a full time work load, I was given simple engineering tasks to perform also, i.e. writing easy firmware code and some simple circuit design. Education / knowledge was very important to my bosses so they let me learn as I went along. That company went under, but my next job started as a pcb designer then grew to include an engineering role. I also decided somewhere along the way to pursue an EE degree at night. I am now one class away from completing the degree. I just started a new job as an EE, but a part of my job includes laying out boards. My new company has in the past contracted out most pcb designs, but will now do more designs in house to retain better control over those designs. I/we also see this as cost effective. Someone mentioned a $120,000 engineer, that equals approx. $57/hr based on a 40 hr. week. So if I am paying a pcb design house over that amount, they (design house) are making more than the $120,000 engineer. No maybe some people can do a pcb layout faster than I can, I don't really care. I want to know that the pcb design is going to be exactly as I want it. As someone else mentioned, I have just spent a good bit of time engineering the design. I am also not interested in paying someone to push an autoroute button amd tell me that they are the fastest designer in the world. In my experience, I have yet to see an fully autorouted board that I was trully impressed with. As far as keeping up with the latest trends / technology etc., I don't find that to be very difficult, especially with the internet and all the other ino sources out in the world today. The way I look at it is that I am dar more valuble to my company as an engineer who also is up to speed in pcb design.

Mike G.

[Bill Brooks]

Bravo. I agree with you completely.
The IPC Designers Council helps with keeping your skills up to date as well. The Certification workshops and tests cover a great deal of information and can round out a designer's knowledge.
There is a growing trend towards becoming a PCB/Engineer in the industry and there are efforts to bring a degreed program to the colleges to provide a path for new designers and engineers to get into this field...
If the job market continues it's recovery we should all enjoy great career challenges and monetary rewards... :)
It certainly is much easier to make informed decisions about placement, routing and the effects of the design choices that are made when you understand what the signals are doing and how they react in the circuit.
Have you joined the IPC designers council yet?

http://dc.ipc.org/ will explain what the organization has to offer...