CID, CID+.....Is it worth it?

[PRoehl]

Everyone,

I was just wondering what everyone's opinion is about the IPC Certification (CID, CID+). I just did the sample test on the IPC website and got 7 of 10 correct. So I need to study up a little. I was wondering if the whole process has been worth it to those who have completed it. The cost of the exam is one thing, but I may need to travel to take it.

Do employers treat you differently when you have certification? Pay more?? Your input is appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

[PRoehl]

Only one vote??

[cadpro2k]

make that two...

Have a great Friday.

[Mark Larson]

Is it worth it? if your company will pay for it, you bet, if not, what are you expecting out of it?

A pay raise? get real, in this economy you are doing good if you don't get a pay cut or laid off, keep in mind that the people who developed and brought this certification to the world were themselves laid off

the vast majority of CID were sent and paid for by their company, to these companies it is obviously important, to many companies they could care less or don't even know what CID is, few HR people know what IPC is, to these companies and people CID is next to worthless, but also keep in mind it could be what sets you apoart from the other guy

the first employer I asked about getting to pay for this training said "I thought you already knew that stuff, why should we pay for something you are supposed to already know?" to help me get a job someplace else isn't what I told them

[PRoehl]

Great feedback. But only 4 votes on my poll.

[padmaster]

I recently asked my company to pay for my certification. They said, "We don't see how it would benefit us. We see how it would benefit you"

I'm seriously considering paying my own way for the workshop and exam in NC this November.

As for "Is it worth it?"

I guess it all depends on whether or not your a PCB Designer or a PCB Design Engineer.

[Ray Kuwalik]

A few years ago I was really excited at the prospect of getting certified. So much so that a group in the Atlanta chapter of the IPC Designers Council got together and formed a study group prior to taking the test. Some people also opted to take the two day class prior to the test. Quite a few people also paid for the class and the test out of their own pockets to further their careers. All well and good, the majority of us passed and thought that as members of this circle armed with our knowledge we would be in greater demand.

Then the carpet was pulled out from under almost all of us.

Down sizing, layoffs, cut backs, off-shore. All the buzz words that meant a lot of us would be looking for new places of employment or even new careers.

Was it worth it? Personally, yes. Overall, probably not.

Mind you this is from a person that was even a member of the beta team for CID+ testing................

Now I step off the soap box and thank all for indulging me.

[PRoehl]

So far it's 5 NO's and 2 Yes's. Thanks to the people who voted.

[davepcb]

I think that if you look at all the information in the CID+ study guide you'll appreciate it more. I am CID and was signed up for the CID+ in Virginia but it was cancelled due to low enrollment. However I have learned a lot about fabrication processes and issues that I wouldn't have learned otherwise. My manager appreciates this.

Yes it's true that many companies don't know anything about IPC. However I have learned a lot and I can definitely say that CID is important. If you can communicate this well with management I'm sure they will appreciate it more.

You can't just say "I'm CID" in an interview. You have to back that up with some examples of how it helps you improve efficiency in design and fabrication of pcb's.

Dave

[petehouwen]

My company has a generous tuition reimbursement program. For years, I have been trying to get them to include seminars and such, since there really aren't any college classes in PCB design. When they saw that this class ended with a test and certificate, they happily paid. So I really went for the 2 day prep more than the letters.


Epilogue: I have finally convinced my company that while I was certainly qualified when they hired me 12 years ago, the industry has changed, and I can't keep up without outside training. They are now paying for the DEC at PCB East! It can be done!

[Tom]

Pete,

Congratulations!

My experience has been that most senior level PCB designers can pass the CID class with some minimal reading & studying. That is not true for the CID+ test. It is very technical and takes a couple of months to study for it, if you plan to pass it. Some 50% of the CID+ designers had to take the test twice. I am one of them. I originally thought the CID+ test was going to be a no-brainer just like the CID test, so I did not study. I was stunned at the amount of technical data.

I can actually say that over the past year I have really used a lot of the information that I learned and directly applied it to my profession. I changed the way I was doing a lot of things. In general, it changed my approach to PCB design in a lot of aspects. And it did help the company I work for. I am now the answer man for all the EE engineers who continually ask me all kinds of PCB design related questions that they do not know the answer to. And I can give a truthful answer instead of some half-baked concoction that I fabricated from my opinion that was developed from my collection of fictitious data that I personally gathered from other people’s opinions over the past 30 years.

CID+ is worth it.

[tstocking]

The verdict is still out. I’ve been out of work for about 6 month except for an occasional consultant job. I passed the CID a little over a month ago trying to get a step up on the rest of us unemployed designers. Since it was my own buck I didn’t take the class. I ordered the study material and flew up to take the test and flew back the same day. I haven’t had an interview since I passed, but the phone may ring tomorrow….I hope.

[Leslieg]

I got my C.I.D. Back in Feb of 2001. I paid for it out of my own pocket and then told my employer to shove it 6 mos. later. They never had any thanks for anything I tried to do for them. I became an independent contractor and have just enough work to support 2 trips a year to Hawaii, a personal trainer and a lifestyle that lets me surf whenever I feel like it. The C.I.D. has great value when you are an independent. The customers like to know they are getting the best educated and experienced designer for their dollar.

Leslie

[PRoehl]

Wow Leslie, I want some of what you got!

[Scicards]

a Yes vote.

I paid for it out my pocket. All my company would do was give me 2 days off to travel and take the test.

The other designers I worked with were pissed cause I took it,
they didn't want to take it. It made them feel infearier.

I find more people are requireing it today. People don't seem to be asking for CID + yet, but I'm sure they will soon.

/rant

Lou out

[ngf74]

I paid for my CID test. I did not pay for the class. Everyone who did take the class said it was nothing more than a review of the study guide. I have debated taking the CID+ and decided against it. The price has increased and I have not seen any return from the CID.

[davepcb]

I have to disagree. Yes the CID exam was fairly easy and covered some known material. However if you decide to take the CID+ exam you will have to study more and by the time you take the exam you'll be glad you did.

CID+ covers a lot of fabrication issues and also gets more specific about design processes. I can easily talk to fab houses and understand everything they do (and forget to do). I can explain the entire design process from schematic to assembly in a more confident way.

My manager has noticed this and so has my wallet!


Later,
Dave

[JivenJim]

Power through knowledge. We should not be so concerned if we're going to get a cookie for spending our doe and time. Consider trying to be the best at what you do. This requires continued investment in our Art of Design. Would be nice if HR would figure out that money spent, helps the company bottom dollar. Till then, if you want to compete with 24 hour a day design firms in India, you'd better sharpen the knife or leave the kitchen.
I did the CID and thought the Test was pretty lamb. The whole "Best Answer" concept was like asking a test on what's your favorite color. In my opinion, there should be more clear questions with only one right answer. The workshop was fun and I learned abit. Good investment overall. Now I'm working on the CID+. I did notice that some employers on the Web and around are beginning to ask that magic phrase "Are you IPC CID." Are they paying more for it now? No. But I suspect in the future it will be required to get the good PCB jobs.

[Naren_thesia]

Hi

I am new bee in this forum !

I read about CID certification recently!
I am so excited about it ! I am willing to get that !
For that I need some guidance about it !

I feel that now most of our customer are asking about JEDEC instead IPC. So, I want to know that any other certification available (Other than CID & CID+)

[bocco]

Hi all,

I just found this forum and signed up. I have watched a lot of threads about CID certification in other forums. One thing I continually notice when searching the job listings is that nobody asks for CID certification but everybody is very specific about which layout package you have experience with. I have had conversations with recruiters where I tell them that I currently use Expedition and they just say "sorry but they're looking for an Allegro guy". No matter what certification I get, in this industry I'm an "Expedition guy" period. I think in the Silicon Vally area a designer is better off learning additional software packages than learning more about design.

Thanks for letting me rant.

[Oldtimer]

Knowing how to use a software package makes you a CAD monkey… Knowing how to Layout boards make you a Designer…

Just because you can swing a hammer does not mean you can build a house. Your software is your hammer.

CAD packages will come and go but your base of knowledge will be with you forever.

[Dick in Raleigh]

With 36 years of PCB design experience I am finding getting employed almost impossible. It isn't the CID or CID+ that is needed, it is a degree. Potential employers want at least an associates or bachlors degree. They pay their electrical engineers 80-100k a year but the degreed pcb designer gets 50-60k. The story is still the same. Why would anybody with a degree want to be a PCB designer? One big problem with todays management is they are more interested in potential performance that actual performance. Thus they write their job descriptions eliminating non-degreed and older designers. Now let me ask all of you a question you do not have to answer. How many people have you seen stay till retirement? Myself, 1. The rest were laid off in their mid 50s. If you aren't there yet, just wait, you will be.
Dick in Raleigh
Richard J. Smith
Triangle PC Design

[Dick in Raleigh]

CID and CID+ is not as important as having a degree. Job market requires a degree. Don't see the logic to such a requirement as if you get a degree why would you want to design PCBs. 36 years doing boards and my next job will be doing something else. There just are no pcb jobs on the east coast. When was the last time you saw an employee in engineering retire? 99% of the time they are laid off. Remember that and have an exit plan ready.
Richard J. Smith
Triangle PC Design
Knightdale, NC (Raleigh)

[wheels]

Dick,

There is a job in Raleigh! Plexus Corp.

http://jobsearch.monster.com/getjob.asp?JobID=49095985&aid=26105253-14106&WT.mc_n=MKT000125&WT.mns_tc_jaint=control

[Dick in Raleigh]

Thanks Wheels,
I know about the Plexus job. I have applied a number of times with them in the past 3 years. Each time I was told I needed a degree and CIT+ training. The person doing the hiring was the head of the local CIT user group. No Degree, No CIT+ = no interview. Plexus is a contract engineering/manufacturing company. They are located just south of NC state university in the heart or Raleigh N.C. Would be an interesting place to work. I am not the stuffed shirt type, more like a duck, gentle above the surface, paddling like crazy below.
Dick in Raleigh
OrCad 10.3
Pads 3.51
Protel 2.8

[Skip Yutkus]

Wonder if he has a degree???

Skip

[Scicards]

Wonder if he has a degree???

Skip

No, I don't think so, I worked for him before he went to the big P
at was at Harris ASD in Melbourne, FL, He ran a real tight ship..
Nice guy.. Cliff Lampson

It's great to be retired !!!

[JimR-OCDS]

Well, I've been in the business for 30 years now, and I remember when CID first came out. Employers were not interested in whether a person was CID, but whether they could do the job or not. It didn't take long to find out if a person was not capable. Also, most managers at that time, knew that a person could be CID and not be all that great of a designer.

To date, I've never took the CID. I'm 56 years old now, and the only reason I would take it is, if my employer paid for it, and the purpose for me would be, that I could have it on my resume, where today's younger managers think its important. Currently, my manager knows that the only reason for me to take it, would be to beef up my resume. He's not about to pay for it.

Jim

[Skip Yutkus]

Almost exactly ditto - right down to the age :)

Skip

[Scicards]

I got my CID at 55 yrs old. I got my company (AT&T) to pay for the flight and
give me the time off. I got caught in a snow storm so I missed the prep
for the test, but I did read half the prep book in the airport waiting for a flight.
Well I didn't think I would do so good, but passed it and learned all the good stuff
about how to design a PCB the good old way, which was refreshing and as
a bonus I meet a lot of real cool pcb designers..

Now, do I think it helped me get a job?

No, but it opened some doors, and made me feel better, so I didn't have to explain why I never took, or sound like a know it all, saying it ain't worth anything.

What I find interesting is most who ask if I am certified CID don't know what It is..
but were told to ask for it..

Cheers
Lou Dallara CID

[JimR-OCDS]

Unfortunately, for many of us older designers, who worked for the same company for over 25 years, before we were forced to look for another job, not having a degree is an impediment to finding a job, especially these days, where most hiring managers, are engineers with degrees. They'll take a younger designer with a degree even in phys-ed, over a designer with 30 plus years experience, most of the time, and will get the younger designer at a bargain price.

Its the world we live in.

The only solution is to know some one, who happens to be looking for designers who can do the job.

Its why networking is so important, and this applies even to younger guys with those degrees in basket weaving. :D

Jim

[Carl Schattke]

Employment and compensation has next to nothing to do with your education or certification. It has everything to do with your story about what you have done and can do. Your ability to be retained with high compensation depends on your ability to deliver VALUE to your employer. You MUST take the responsibility to educate ignorant management as to the value of PCB design. Newsflash - No PCB design = NO profits for company. Every electronic company out there relies on our profession to reap the rewards of DFM, DFT, DFA and SI compliance. That's not a slam dunk if your anywhere near the cutting edge. The effort and skill to tie the multiple disciplines together, that PCB design entails, in an integrated design is truly special to our profession. The money is NOT dependant on your degree or certification, if think it is your right, and if you don't think it is you are also right.
Top PCB talent is WELL paid, I know people that make 200-300K a year in this profession. Many make 100K on up. A great many also make 40-60K. Your comp will be related to so much more than just your ability to place and route a design. Course work like CID, CID+ adds value because it broadens the knowledge base you have. A top notch designer must possess a wide range of skills, in many areas to attain the highest professional levels.
Important are the basic knowledge of process and procedures for PCB design and fab, Physics, metallurgy, presentations, calculations, programming, auto routing, constraint setup, material science, thermal dynamics, CAD, CAM, Mechanical drafting, 3D Modeling, Project management, commercial negotiations, procurement, specification writing, failure analysis, relationship skills, questioning and interview skills, information organizational skills, networking skills, schematic logic skills, Signal integrity, Power analysis and much more. You can not overlook the value of written goal setting, discipline, thought and control over your activities and the maintenance of excellent habits and attitude. The top paid professionals know all this and can draw upon it to come up with optimal solutions. You generally will get paid based on the size of the problems you solve. If you lack pay then you probably lack some of the skills I listed, you may not want to own up to it, but you are getting paid what you think you are worth.
If you have more skills then you will think you are worth more and so will your employer and/or customers. There is very good money to be made in this profession, but you are going to have to work at it.
For me personally, I like to put my stamp of approval on all the products I design. If it meets my standards then my customers going to be thrilled because I work for the best most optimal design outcome. That's the real blessing of working in this industry, you design it and then see it go to production and you know that thousands or millions of people's lives will be impacted by what you have done. That's the coolest feeling to know what you did is out there performing what would seem like miracles to the mind of just a 100 years ago.

[tmd63]

Is it worth it?

Is the PCB designer industry still there to warrant it? These days the Electronics enginners are taking over the PCB design areas and becoming 'Jacks of all trades' to cut costs. But they are not producing are good a job as using a true PCB Designer. That is the state of affairs in the UK. I have been looking for a true PCB disn position for the last 8 years and still not found one. I am currently a Health & Safety rep, Forklift driver, Fire Marshall to fill in the working day.

I would love to get back into the pure PCB design role but, short of moving to the states, that does not look likely in the near future.

Tony

Cheltenham, UK

[Alan Bradshaw]

Tony,

Is moving to the states the answer?

I am UK based as well and have worked as a PCB designer continuously (but not the same company) for 17 years.

The jobs are there and as for CID, I am taking my test in October (yes, the company IS paying for it)

Fingers crossed.

Alan