Does anyone else get the feeling that...

[padmaster]

Cadence is going to kill Orcad?

I attended a Cadence seminar several months ago. It was mostly Orcad talk but near the end they mentioned that they were going to incorporate the CIS feature into Concept. Then a few weeks ago, I received a letter stating that Orcad support had been sourced out to a third party.


Anyone else heard anything?


If Cadence did kill Orcad, would they give existing customers a license for Concept for no additional fees?

[Tom]

I heard that Cadence fired all of the original OrCAD employees (up in Oregon) and hired a 3rd party company (an ex-employee of Cadence) to sell and support the product.

[cadpro2k]

Let's put it in perspective...

Cadence has:
Orcad Capture (Orcad layout tool)
Cadence Concept (Cadence allegro tool)

Both good. Both cheap. Cadence doesn't make a living on either one. Orcad has a much! larger user base. But to retrain an engineer on either one? The librarian has the blunt of the "retooling" effort. If cadence does EOL Capture it's not a big impact, and they will probably give the tools to exisitng Capture users.

Mentor has:
Boardstation schematic (Boardstation layout)
Design Capture (Expedition layout, was Veribest)
PADS Logic (PADS layout tool)
many, many Orcad users interfacing to their layout.
Where oh where is Viewlogic? Anyone?

What do you think will be EOL'd?

[Tom]

Viewlogic is Mentor's choice schematic tool. All of their CAD programs will work with Viewdraw. Viewdraw is being rewritten and upgraded to be user friendly, easy to learn and will have robust features.

Creating the schematic libraries is one of the biggest time consumers in any schematic program. Can you imagine recreating schematic symbols for several different schematic programs that are all owned by the same company? That's a waste of time.

I think that Standardization is setting in and Mentor has to make a choice to stand behind one schematic tool and that tool will be Viewdraw.

Now PowerLogic is not going away because there are 7,000 users. Even though there is little to no development going on, it just needs a new library. I think that PowerLogic will get a new library from the master Viewdraw library via a translation.

Personally I don't care if OrCAD goes away. Makes no difference to me one way or the other.

[cadpro2k]

"Viewlogic is Mentor's choice"

I'm sure this will be news to Mentor's other users. No pun intended.

Thanks for the update, Tom. Glad to know we have a good source to help figure out what Mentor might be thinking at this time. I know we are looking at the "tools" situation now and the Mentor vs. Cadence situation is figuring largely in the equation.

Good day.

Mitch

[Lameris]

Viewdraw being Mentors schematic tool of choice has been said more than once. It is kind of hard to believe, but it already interfaces to most of the PCB layout systems, has an ASCII database, and works on Windows, and several Unix flavors.

Perhaps it is true, but the sample databases I saw when I started implementing DxDatabook were way over my head in complication. I finally had success when I stripped out 90% of the database structure and started over. A daunting task to start up but it works well now.

I not working for Mentor, have publicly stated how I think they could and should implement a single design file database, using a modified megafile format. This would help in design portability, while still retaining a means to output the design in a format compatible with the current data structure for older tool sets. Otherwise everything is there and a lot of it is what I wish for in PowerPCB. Better library management, Design management, the program informs the designer of part updates... It is already there in Viewdraw.

Mentor does need to figure out what to call it. The name of the year stuff has got to quit. ePD, DxDesigner, Viewdraw... It is diluting and confusing.

Finally, symbol libraries can be fixed... Tom, Randy and others at PCBstandards.com did a great service to the PowerPCB users in fixing the problems with the old PowerPCB libraries! To date, I am the only user posting and sharing Viewdraw libraries, and I will not admit they are perfect or even half as detailed as the PCB libraries found here.


Gary Lameris

[Josh Moore]

For those of you who don't know me, I was the Product Marketing Manager for PADS and now I'm the Product Marketing Manager for Cadence PCB products.

Let me see if I can help set the record straight on OrCAD.

First of all, OrCAD is alive and well.

OrCAD is still owned and developed by Cadence but it is now distributed by VARs. In North America, EMA, headquartered in N.Y., is responsible for sales, support and training of OrCAD products.

Product marketing was consolidated from Cadence in Portland, OR. to Cadence in Chelmsford, MA.

Cadence continues to improve the OrCAD products – look for a new release, 10.0, to be introduced at PCB West this year.

Josh

[randychase]

Thanks for the info Josh. Good to see your name again.

I had a client ask me where to buy Orcad and was surprised to not see any VARs on the Cadence site, just the link to EMA. At least that was true a few weeks ago.

I wondered what happened and what would change in the direction of the product from Cadence.

[padmaster]

Thanks for all the info guys.


I purchased the PCB Studio suite (from EMA) for home use because it was AFFORDABLE. I chose Orcad over Concept because I believed it had a larger user base and would be Cadences' choice schematic capture program.

My concern was this:

If this third party support team (at the time I didn't know it was EMA) decides to increase the price for support for Orcad, that may make it UNAFFORDABLE for me. Does that leave me without a schematic program or would the entire suite become UNAFFORDABLE? Would Cadence let me switch to Concept without any additional fees?

[Ryan Marston]

Does Viewdraw link well to PowerPCB as PowerLogic does? Would it be wise to try lerning Viewdraw and start going away from PowerLogic?

[Cadcrusher]

We use Viewdraw with Power Pcb and the link is very good. Cross probing, forward and reverse anotating is breeze.

[Lameris]

A lot of work was put into the last release of Viewdraw and the link to PowerPCB is very good.

Cross probing works well and is very powerful!

Net and Class rules are fully supported for forward and back annotation. Component may be too (I haven't tried it)

Furthermore, you only need create the decals (or get them from PCB standards). The Viewdraw link makes the part types and attributes are assigned in the schematic and exported to the PCB.

I recommend after the part types are created by Viewdraw, they be moved into a "permanent library".

Gary

[Tom]

There is an OrCAD Capture update coming out in August (V10.0). Does anyone know what new features are in that release?

I do not want to know the new features for OrCAD Layout, just OrCAD capture.

I heard from several sources that there are no new features for OrCAD Capture.

I know that EMA in NY is still selling OrCAD Capture and yearly maintenance. What do you get for your maintenance besides technical support?

[Josh Moore]

The new OrCAD website is now up at www.orcad.com

There are a lot of new features and enhancements in the 10.0 version of Capture as well as all the OrCAD 10.0 products.

The website should give you a good idea of what's coming in the 10.0 products.

[dmaldona]

Upon returning from Orcad training this month, I wanted to share that we were told in the training class that all future development and support for Orcad would be done in India. This was from an instructor at EMS, the third party company Cadence has turned training over to.

So, my question also, is Orcad going away?????

[zoom]

I fear that at least Orcad Layout will die. Look at the new features of Layout 10.0 and you'll realize that there aren't many improvements over the last 2 years. The GUI in 9.2.3 still looks like Win3.11 and the program handling is still unstructured. There are still unsolved bugs and a lot of annoyances.
I'm not very satisfied with the Cadence strategy. So tell me why do we pay all these expensive maintenance contracts?

Regards Joachim

[padmaster]

I'm not very satisfied with Cadences' strategy either. They seem to be in total chaos. Recently I read a top 10 wish list for allegro with responses from Cadence. Most of the responses were "too much developement involved." Well, guess what Cadence, that's what we pay maintenence for. I believe Accel had this same problem. They didn't do much improvement in the base software, they just kept adding 'modules' to dollar you to death with. Look where they are now. I recently downloaded the cd images for PSD 15.0 and I 'ordered' a new license file from sourcelink. Sourcelink said it usually ships within 48 hours..... 1 1/2 weeks later, I still don't have it. I've also tried to contact my account manager at Cadence by email and voice message and still haven't heard back.......email or phone call. I've actually talked to a tech support guy who seemed 'overjoyed' with the software problems because it keeps him in a job.

[Tom]

I've actually talked to a tech support guy who seemed 'overjoyed' with the software problems because it keeps him in a job.
This is a problem. All CAD vendors like Chaos. They thrive on chaos. If everything worked perfect and Standards were implemented and adhered too, the customers would be far too advanced and productive. This would actually increase our performance and product development time & errors and scrap would decrease. We would be too efficient.

This is not good for the PCB manufacturers, assembly shops and CAD vendors. They would lose if we became more efficient. So why change anything? Keep the customers in the dark and do not let them automate their processes. Their mentality is: they would win and we would lose so "Let Chaos Rule".

[padmaster]

It is a vicious circle isn't it?


I just wish Cadence would fix some of the basic stuff like:

toolbars staying where you put them

incorporate some of the skill/script files into the menus

solder paste layers in the symbol editor

chamfer and fillet command in the symbol editor

Unlimited undo

Move the 'cancel' command in the popup menu away from the 'done' command

to name a few.

These are basic functions that they seem to refuse to address.

[zoom]

>>This is a problem. All CAD vendors like Chaos<<

Yes Tom , you're right and they like to "eat" the competitors. Just to get the customers of the competitors system. It's a question of time when Cadence buys Mentor or Mentor buys Cadence , they'll quit developing and fire the engineers. Then we all use one system with no standards and no support...a terrible idea!
@padmaster: you really think they'll fix anything? I expected V 15.0 in January, just to be able to use ODB++. Then they said It'll get May. Now we have August, no update, no fixes, no changes the last 2 years but a lot of maintenance fees.

Joachim.

[phillipr]

I don't Use Orcad
With Thousands of Designers Reading this
It wont be doing their Reputation Any good.
Orcad Gets a Big Thumbs Down from me.

[padmaster]

I received my PSD 15.0 cd's in the mail yesterday.....still no license file :(

[padmaster]

Originally posted by zoom
[B@padmaster: you really think they'll fix anything? I expected V 15.0 in January, just to be able to use ODB++. Then they said It'll get May. Now we have August, no update, no fixes, no changes the last 2 years but a lot of maintenance fees.

Joachim. [/B]


I think they will fix things very slowly (and break a few while they're at it). I believe part of the problem is some of the customers have so many projects in archive, they don't want too much change.

[cadpro2k]

Originally posted by padmaster
(snip)I believe part of the problem is some of the customers have so many projects in archive, they don't want too much change.

Padman,

Sorry about "no license file, yet". Typical of Mentor and Cadence.

I believe most of all the problems we'll have these days with the large CAD vendors is that the economy stinks and people are holding back monies that the vendors have needed. Now the vendors are caught in a dilemna, "how do we survive and also develop our products?"

Cadence and Mentor both have a HUGE design suite to support, with dwindling amounts of maintanence monies coming in, so they've had to lay people off, or (hold your breath...) off-shore the support services. I'm waiting for the next best product to be introduced on the market for this niche corner. I like Cadence, I can stand Mentor, but I'm tired of the $$$ arguement. Give me a tool that does what they do for 1/3 of the costs and good support. Know anyone?

Here's what I need:
- stackup controls (impedance, thickness)
- great autorouting, including pwr/gnds
- modifyable split planes
- auto diff pair/matched length routing
- GREAT drafting capabilites (no more AutoCAD)
- bi-directional Solidworks/ProE support
- gerber/dxf/idf/Offspring import/export
- differential impedance calc, built in
- landpattern wizard
- bi-directional schematic input/output
- Constraints driven from Excel spreadsheet format
- free "pre-placement package"/viewer for the engineers
- CAM check subset (limited Valor)
- PDM support for revision control
- additional wishes...

Good day.

Mitch

[padmaster]

Cadence had sent the license file to a person who doesn't work here anymore. Seems I went thru this last time and asked them to change it. Now I just need some spare time to install it.

[zoom]

Originally posted by cadpro2k

Here's what I need:....

me too!

hello cadpro2k,

what you demand sounds like a perfect tool. Most of the functions exist in OrCad but don't work very proper. That's why we all complaining.
I can't use a tool which promise "we have a drafting function!" but if you work with it, you'd do better, to draw the lines per hand.

I know why customers stop paying maintenance:

They expect development at their tool!
If this is not the case, nobody carries coal to Newcastle and stop paying maintenance. I will too if....!

Joachim

[ejlersen]

Hi,

A few notes :

You're missing
- stackup controls (impedance, thickness)
This is actually possible in PCB Design Studio with Perf. option, Designer and Expert
- great autorouting, including pwr/gnds
You can always argue about that, but Specctra is the best autorouter around and is included in all Allegro configurations
- modifyable split planes
- auto diff pair/matched length routing
This can be done with PCB Design Studio with Perf. option, Designer and Expert. In Release 15 you have very enhanced functionality in this area with a lot more control.
- bi-directional Solidworks/ProE support
This can be done with Allegro
- gerber/dxf/idf/Offspring import/export
Allegro still offers gerber, dxf and IDF import/export functionality
- differential impedance calc, built in
This is in PCB Design Studio with Perf. option, Designer and Expert Release 15
- landpattern wizard
This is standard in Allegro
- Constraints driven from Excel spreadsheet format
PCB Design Studio with Perf. option, Designer and Expert all offers constraint management which is Excel like, but with live feedback and colors showing violations in the constraint manager. Se in Setup, Electrical Constraint Spreadsheet
- CAM check subset (limited Valor)
PCB Design Studio with Perf. option, Designer and Expert all offers some level of DFM checks in Manufacture, DFA Check

Best regards,

Ole

[zoom]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ejlersen



This is actually possible in PCB Design Studio with Perf. option, Designer and Expert


This all might be in Allegro, but I don't
have Allegro, this is the point. I'm sure You know how much to invest in a new EDA System. I can't buy every year a new one because I'd like to be up to date. There's anytime someone in the background called "boss" who's interested in saving cost's. And if I have to study new systems I need time and this results in costs.

Regards Joachim

[cadpro2k]

Originally posted by ejlersen

A few notes :
(snip)
This is actually possible in PCB Design Studio with Perf. option, Designer and Expert
Ole

Hi Ole,

This is my point exactly. I think if you look at my wish list you'll find it fits with Cadence perfectly (almost, with a few items I've always wished for). What I run into time and again, either from "limited" designers or managers, is the arguement on costs $$$. Tons of people want all the features for next to nothing. Do they get 'em? Not. It doesn't work that way, hence we've all got some work-arounds.

I know for a fact that Cadence and Mentor "survive" on their big-ticket customers, and they both come up with some creative solutions to facilitate the issues those customers encounter. That's normally where the latest development items are being driven. Does Cadence or Mentor really listen to the small customers to make changes? Maybe occassionally, but not often. Top 10 Lists? Hardly. These simply do not create revenue.

I firmly believe that no designer will be truely happy with the tool they are using. There's always something that was overlooked when the tool was being developed/enhanced. Some are great at this and that, and not so great in other areas.

What I don't get is, why should costs be that big of an issue if I'm intended to get a design finished to some impossible schedule? If the electrical design went beyond schedule by a month, and now I have to make up time, why do I then have to hear "your maintanence is due, why's it SO MUCH money...?". My tool makes me the designer I am. Limit me by tools, and you limit my throughput. Can't have it both ways.

BTW, when someone develops the "wish list" tool I defined for $2000 with no maintanence costs, let me know. There are lots of managers looking for it also.

Good day.

Mitch

[Tom]

SANTA CRUZ, Calif. — Claiming new features, improved tool integration and enhanced technologies, Cadence Design Systems this week (Sept. 9) announced the 10.0 release of its Windows-based OrCAD tool suite for PCB designers. Cadence has also announced three new product configurations within the OrCAD Unison series.

The OrCAD 10.0 release claims several design reuse enhancements for the OrCAD Capture and Capture CIS schematic utilities. These include layout reuse, unlimited undo/redo to remove any prior actions and a part editor that lets users move a logical pin name independently from a physical part number. Pins can also be copied and pasted, or moved, as a group.

The PSpice A/D analog simulator has added support for BSIM3.2 models and parameterized models. A single dialog box lets users create simulation profiles, or import existing simulation settings into a new profile. Cadence claims improved integration between PSpice and Capture, allowing simpler schematic design.

OrCAD Layout boasts new "cut and paste" type functions that retain the linkage between Capture schematic data and board layout data. The Layout package now directly outputs Valor's ODB++ data format. An added library catalog tool helps users create and print catalog files.

New Unison suite configurations include Unison EE, which consists of Capture and PSpice A/D; Unison PCB, which includes Capture, Layout and the Specctra for OrCAD autorouter; and Unison Ultra, which guides designers through schematic entry, simulation, board layout and routing.

Finally, Cadence has established a new OrCAD Web site to support the personal engineering market. OrCAD prices range from $1,355 to $7,996. OrCAD 10.0 is available now.