Difference Between Board Station and Expedition PCB?

[Boarddesigner]

Hi,
I am wondering what the difference is between Board Station and Expedition PCB. Also if one could import or open a Board Station design using Expedition PCB.
Thanks much for any input

haveagoodone

Boarddesigner

[Skip Yutkus]

Expedition is the Veribest tools and you cannot as of yet import BoardStation files even if you have Autoactve RE for Board station, (Autoactive RE is the Veribest routing environment), since Mentor is planning on replacing BoardStation with Expedition, (or creating a hybrid of the two), they must be working on a solution to this issue.

Skip

[randychase]

As I understand it, there will be a solution to that.

[Gizzmo]

Originally posted by randychase
As I understand it, there will be a solution to that.

Hummm when? WHen i called mentor on the subject they directed me to the consulting part of mentor, the tech claims they have a tool to do it but its not for sale but on a consulting fee.....

[cadpro2k]

Heck, why not convert from BS to Allegro. Then you can completely sidestep (tor)Mentor. If tMentor won't supply you with a translator YOU KNOW it has, but wants, instead, more support $$$ from you, I wonder...

Good day.

(BTW, the BS to Allegro works quite well)

[Skip Yutkus]

That's Mentor!!

They are extremely paranoid, about Expedition nudging out B.S. - which by all rights it should.

Skip

[Gizzmo]

Originally posted by Skip Yutkus
That's Mentor!!

They are extremely paranoid, about Expedition nudging out B.S. - which by all rights it should.

Skip

Why dont they own both??

Is there a nice work around from a BS board to expedition?

Its sad we have a box of dongle of boardstation that are hardly used these days.

[Skip Yutkus]

IMHO the major obstacles are:

1. Concurrent engineering capability.

2. NIH (Not Invented Here).

The big selling point for B.S. is the ability of separate groups to develop portions of the design and then pull it all together through the Viewpoint.

This probably could be incorporated into Expedition, but then you hit obstacle #2 which cannot be overcome - if you talk to Mentor they will tell you that Expedition and VeriBest are totally different - even though they, (except for a few changes made by Mentor), are identical - right down to the file extensions used.

Skip

[cadpro2k]

Here's my jist, after taking the 'free for me' class back in May and talking with the instructor (who by the way was a consultant, tMentor doesn't even have their own education staff).

Mentor BS has a HUGE user base, inclusive of many LARGE corporations. These corporations have spent $$$$$$$$$$$$ developing all the support required to run BS. And most all the corps have a HUGE investment tying BS with their supply chains (MRP). Expedition doesn't utilize anything along the lines of LMS (heard rumors tMentor would have something, Nothing yet. Heard same rumor Cadence was developing something to go after BS folks, Nothing yet). So Expedition is not a viable product to these folks.

So, Mentor added the place-n-route functions as an add-in to BS, and calls it BS RE. Whoopppppieeee! Crap. Same ol' BS tool, outside of RE. And, RE is still as clumsy as Expedtion in some aspects, but I won't go into them.

Bottom line... tMentor doesn't have a viable product to showcase to the BS Community bean counters because there is NO replacement for BS at these large corps.

Good day.

Mitch

[Gizzmo]

Originally posted by cadpro2k
Heard same rumor Cadence was developing something to go after BS folks, Nothing yet).

Mitch [/B]

I was able to fully bring a BS board into Allegro, so the ability is there for that already. The board look pretty cleanly imported, much better than any "tool" or "service" Mentor currently has in place.......

[Skip Yutkus]

There you go! If you are not one of those "Big Corps" that's your answer. BTW Mitch - Mentor hasn't supported LMS for several years, they have something new (and a lot more expensive).

Skip

[cadpro2k]

Yes, but they have something. LMS (or their current "UltraLMS) is what ties these large corps to tMentor. Cadence was supposed to come up with something to mimc LMS capabilities, and could then lure customers off BS. Yes, you can import BS boards into Allegro, but that's a small portion of the whole pie in the conversion from BS. tMentor doesn't even have a way to lure those customers onto Expedition. BS/RE was the plan, but it still leaves you with the crappy taste of BS. ;)

Good day.
Mitch

[hockeycoach]

Whew......... not sure where to start, but here goes.

-Expedition flow uses a front end schematic tool originally from Innoveda and a backend layout from Veribest....

-Expedition tools and concurrent multiuser frontend (schematic) design is not possible, it is however on Board Station thru Board Architect.

-Mentor does DEFINITELY still support LMS, and if you want to migrate to their new replacement, DMS, you can. This is totally up to you. DMS ties into your MRP, Oracle, etc systems. However it is EXPENSIVE to implement and migrate to, and if you have a large LMS library currently in place the conversion is costly, and often requires you to continue to maintain your LMS library for legacy design support.

-A couple of year back Mentor's roadmap was toward the DxDesigner/Expedition flow, and all new functionality was going to appear there first and then 6months to a year later appear in the BoardStation flow.
This has now done a complete 180, and Mentor is now introducing new functionality in BoardStation first or in sync with DxDesigner/Expedition flow.

-the down side to DxDesigner/ Expedition flow is that is primarily built and run on a Microsoft Windows OS, which has limitations with regard to multi versions being installed concurrently on a given PC (and don't get me started on the remaining down side to WinBlows). The only saving grace is that Mentor had the foresight to build it for operation under Linux as well, and will continue to do so.

-Mentor recommends that new startup companies start with DxDesigner/Expedition flow, because it is cheaper (for now) and easier to implement and understand. It is, however an ENTRY tool and currently lacks the complete frontend to backed functionality of it's big brother, BoardStation.

-Mentor has addressed the DxDesigner/Expedition and BoardStation camps with BSXE2006 where you can mix up your desired flow between frontend and backend.

-AutoActive RE and Expedition has the same functionality.... the menus and popups may be different, but that's just a GUI thing. The underlying functionality is EXACTLY the same... if you take the time to setup your environment correctly.

-back annotation and forward annotation works flawlessly in BoardStation.

-automation and customization, VBscripting in DxDesigner/Expedition and Ample in BoardStation. Ample works the same on Windows, VBscripting not so much in Linux.

Anyhow, at the end of the day it's all about getting the job done in a timely manner (short schedules), with no errors and as little frustration and loss of hair as possible.

[Skip Yutkus]

Anyhow, at the end of the day it's all about getting the job done in a timely manner (short schedules), with no errors and as little frustration and loss of hair as possible.

So I take it you don't use BS then, my biggest bitch about BS was it took at least twice the time to do anything than with virtually any other tool, and even after using it for 5 years, I still believe that - It would take a whole ton of bucks to get me to use that monster again.

Skip

[Gizzmo]

I remember senior designers dragging there feet when we first introduced DA. It was too GUI for them. (secretly I think they just missed the nice "check off" stroke :) )

We Beta tested that for awhile working with Mentor and then they finally moved to Expedition.

Being new to design myself I would take Cadence, Expedition or even some tape and dots over BS any day ;) (well ok not so much the tape and dots comments, i am not that old ;) )

[Skip Yutkus]

Gizzmo,

I am that old and I'm on the same page! - DA is fundamentally a very basic schematic capture tool, and in some respects is very irritating, (can't change the pin grid), but the killer is package and the basic layout tool itself - which I was finally discovering after 5 years really had SOME good points - negative planes were very nice, but not as nice as in Allegro - manually routing past a pin then switching ends to complete the route is plain stupid.

Skip

[hockeycoach]

So I take it you don't use BS then, my biggest bitch about BS was it took at least twice the time to do anything than with virtually any other tool, and even after using it for 5 years, I still believe that - It would take a whole ton of bucks to get me to use that monster again.

Skip


You would be wrong on the "So I take it you don't use BS then" statement.
Having used Valid Tools, then Mentor V7, V8, and every release since, and still do, I would say that i have a pretty good handle on the tools and their pro's and con's.

I come from the hardware eng design environment, and have used the BS front end tools to death. The BS backend tools, layout, librarian, fablink, I've used to a lesser extent, mainly in the high speed layout, ICX, (and XTK ... ick) end of things.

I have worked in the support of end users for the last 12 years, in both the Board Station and Expedition toolsets.

You sound like most of the PCB layout designers I've worked with who say, "I want my Microsoft Windows, with Expedition or BSRE tools installed locally, I don't want to learn Unix, Linux or any new tools. I don't care if the front end Expedition is not liked by the Hardware Engineers, and is not capable of meeting their requirements.I like the Expedition Layout environment, even if AutoActiveRE has the same functionalty, I don't like the GUI, and won't use it".

I think we should agree that each toolset has good and bad points, in both frontend and backend tools, and having said that, let's the market drive where each goes.

btw,
Mentor has back tracked on the "Expedition replacing BoardStation" plan. BoardStation is here to stay and will now stay in lock step with Expedition. This is now evident in the BSXE2006 and BSXE2007 tool flow.