Mentor Graphics Expedition PCB tool

[Ray from NJ]

Hello to my fellow users of the Veribest tool suite.
I've been using VB since version 14 came out (about 8 years)
and have seen the evolution of this tool from the early days of
Dasix Cadnetics on Sun workstations, right up to the current 2002
version from the new owner of the software, Mentor Graphics.

I consider VB98 as one of the best versions for analog based Engineering groups - has all the manual routing/editing features.

VB99 had a ton of problems and a lot of critical features deleted.

WG2000 was a great improvement by including the manual editor into the advanced editor (auto-router).

WG2002 is the best yet with a lot of new features and old features added back in.

[Bill Brooks]

Hi Ray,

We are using Mentor Expedition ( Pinnacle ) and Design Capture ( Schematic ) at Palomar College, San Marcos, California, in our PCB Design class.

I was a Cadnetix user back when it was called the CDX5000. I trained on the system in Boulder Colorado in the early 1980's. I also was a user of the IEDS program by Intergraph when they were designing boards on 100K a seat VAXVMS systems. In fact, I sat on a review delegation that was invited to visit the Mentor Facility in Beaverton, Oregon when the Board Station PCB design software was in beta test, prior to release, and they wanted the opinion of some other designers about the look and feel, function and features of their PCB system. (I won't publish my comments about it at this time)... I think the nearest competition they had was Callay, or Scicards, Intergraph, Applicon, Calma, Computervision, Telesis... etc. As I remember, they were the major players at the time. Of those mentioned, Cadnetix was by far the easiest most productive tool on the market. Their philosophy was to keep the user interface as simple as possible and to make it relate to how the designer thinks and designs.... and keep the software complexity hidden or behind closed doors so to speak. Today’s Mentor Expedition seems to have strayed pretty far from those original ideals expressed in the Cadnetix software...

After that time I used Tango PCB, ORCAD, AutoCad, the Specctra Auto router, PADS, Protel and, most recently, Mentor....

I watched Veribest with great interest as they came on the market with the 'undisputed BEST router on the market', at the time, ( no offense to Specctra or Blaze.... ) and am very interested in seeing where Mentor takes the product. All CAD software has its shortcomings, the test is to see if we designers can use it effectively and the companies that purchase it can make a reasonable profit from using the product.

Undoubtedly, there is great interest in the platform from the designer’s point of view; the capabilities, features, and paycheck seem to really grab our attention. ( some companies are wincing under the cost per seat to own and maintain Mentor).. I have had 2 full classes at Palomar so far since we started teaching design with the tool and the students are a mix of beginners and 20 year veterans all trying to get the skill set offered in the class to enhance their opportunities in getting employment as a PCB designer.

I would really like to get your unbiased opinion about the current Mentor Expedition W2002 release and where you thing the software could use improvement, and where they are going with it. The purchase of PADS and Innoveda makes me wonder about their direction a bit... as other designers have expressed their opinions to me also...

Is Mentor Systems just capturing ‘Market Share’ as some have suggested? Will Pads 'fade away' as the Board Station software seems to be doing? Which software tool will the majority of jobs for designers be using for the foreseeable future? I welcome all comments... thanks for your attention.

Best Regards,

[Ray from NJ]

Hi Bill,
I am a big fan of Mentor Expedition (Veribest PCB) and have used it for many years.
I'm responsible for starting several companies that are using the tool and have generated close to a million dollars in sales and licensing for Mentor/Veribest in the past 10 years.
I bring the tool in and it flourishes. (someone at Mentor Graphics owes me a thank you)

The router and interactive routing is by far the best there is out there.
This tool shines on large (10"x10" and up) high speed multi layer boards. It can be used on small, double sided, analog boards but I don't know why anyone would want to or be able to justify the cost.
Sure, it's nice to have all the net class and net property information available on small boards, but it all depends on how critical the design is.
It's all about risk management. Do you trust your designers enough to complete working boards with minimal crosstalk, grounding issues, EMI, or RFI? Or do you want the ECAD tool to provide the extra level of thought process and checking?
There are several cheap, fast tools out there (Orcad, Protel, Pads) that are better suited for manual editing of small (less than 8"x8") and RF type boards.
Again it all depends on the type of boards you are designing which will determine the selection of ECAD tool to use.

I would think the purchase of Pads was a market share decision.
Mentor Graphics needed a new crop of customers.
I don't think Pads will fade away. It has its own market in the entry level board design.

Now my rants:
1. Design Capture (schematic entry) is not too great and is the biggest complaint that I get from the engineers I work with.
They constantly reference the ease of use that Orcad Capture has.
They soon learn what the limitations and quirks are and figure out all the work arounds.
Hopefully the switch to Viewlogic in the future will make them happy. (wishful thinking)

2. FlexLM licensing has always been a problem for me.
When you buy a software tool you expect to be able to use it forever. Not the case here.
I want my ECAD tool shrink-wrapped with a one-year maintenance and some new version updates, and that's it.
I should be able to choose weather I want to use this particular version forever, or pay for upgrades and maintenance later.
Even after you bought the tool you are only given a temporary license file that you have to upgrade in a month or two.
All the license files have an expiration date. It's a constant battle trying to keep the license files with different purchase dates valid on a large network.
The problem is worse when you have changed NIC cards several times on your server and the host ID numbers are different each time. I could usually guarantee the first set of licenses that were sent to me would be wrong.

3. I don't like the file structure. I used to be able to identify what each file in the folder was, where it came from, and it's importance.
I no longer know that level of detail. Even the .pcb file is just a pointer to all the other layer files.

4. Pricing is also an issue with me. I'd like to see it priced around $8-10k so even the average Designer can afford a seat for home use.
There is an Ascent L2 and L4 version available without the Auto router, for about $15k.
I guess the old saying you get what you pay for holds true. You want the best; It's going to cost you.

Regards,

Ray

[krishnanice]

Hello Sir,
I've worked on Cadence, and Exxpress PCB softwares and have gained enough knowledge by designing couple of board. But, a job that I'm planning on applying needs the knowledge of Mentor Expedition PCB software. I'm not sure if I can buy the student version of this software before I expect a call from them. Once I learn the software, I can assure myself that I can actually discuss with them about what I did, and can explain what I've actually designed. Please help me and let me know if there's any student version of Mentor Expedition PCB software?
Also, I'm wondering if Cadence and Mentor Expedition PCB software are similar?

I really appreciate your help! Thank You!

~Krishna~

[Ray from NJ]

If you know Cadence Allegro then learning Expedition should not be too hard.
It's just a matter of finding the proper tool in the menu structure and learning what effect it has on the design.

Expedition has 6 levels: Pinnacle, Ascent LX, Ascent, PCB Planner, PCB Viewer and PCB Browser. Ascent would be considered the student version.

Expedition is schematic driven. If its not on the schematic, it won't be on the board.

It's also very library oriented using a central library. You should purchase a library from PCBlibraries.com to save some time.
http://www.pcblibraries.com/store/detail.aspx?ID=37

[popoyboys]

does anyone have training materials (from schematic to placement, routing and post processing) for the Expedition software aside from the pdf files that come with the software package?

[Gizzmo]

does anyone have training materials (from schematic to placement, routing and post processing) for the Expedition software aside from the pdf files that come with the software package?

I thought the software comes with some tutorials...i will have to double check